running fine, now not! Electrical? HELP!

[robbkramer]

The truck:
1969 F-250 360 2WD

The New:
new carb
new plug wires
recent cap, rotor and points
new coil
new batt.
new starter
new solenoid
new electric fuel pump (previous owner)
new fuel filter (in-line)
New fuel gauge

The problem

Three days ago on a short drive, the engine started 'missing'. It was a very hard start, but managed to get nearly home before it stalled. After 35 minutes of walking back and forth to my house to the truck with tools, it started again and limped home. The next morning I began checking things and found a cracked terminal on my coil. Ah ha! I thought. I replaced the coil. The truck started up and idled smooth. When I took it out for a test drive, the symptoms immediately returned and have not gone away. Very rough idle (if it starts at all) and then it will stall. No backfiring or blue or black smoke; just quits.

Strange Symptoms

• Fuel gauge worked fine, now doesn't. It worked this afternoon when I tried to start it after installing a new fuel filter; then it quit working.

• Coming home before all this started, when the truck was running well, my headlights started flickering on and off.

• I filled up the tank the day this all began, stopped at the hardware store and noticed gas coming out of the closed cap. I MIGHT not have closed the cap all the way but pretty sure I did.

• The peculiar "runs fine, then lurches and misses and quits" symptom"

What I've checked

I checked the fuel pump, seems fine aside from testing pressure. Fuel is clear and clean, interior of tank from what I could see appears clean. I have not checked spark yet, will do that later today. Starter works very well with fast, even cranks. Carb was working beautifully, so I don't think that's an issue. When the truck was running, it ran very well with smooth power and idle. It has had starting issues since I bought it and I was certain I'd fixed that with the new starter and solenoid....however, I can't tell 100% because of this newer issue which mimics the starting issue. This seems like a sudden development.

I'm suspicious of the ignition switch: could that cause all this?

Thanks anyone and everyone; this is driving me nuts and I'm moving in two weeks and have to get this truck going!!!!!!

[basketcase0302]

Rob,

Two quick things to try is to run a dedicated hot to the coil +, (from the solenoid + terminal) to see if the engine will run like that. Don't leave the hot hooked up for any length of time without running the engine though. This will take the ignition switch out of the picture. This also almost sound like it could be resistor wiring failing, (the hot wire will also rule this out). And check the points gap, (I can't remember if it should be .035)?

Then I'd throw a clear fuel filter on it so you can see if it's got a good supply of gas. And don't rule out the possibility of bad gas, (water contaminated) either. I worked for a gas supplier for awhile, glad I got away from there... One of the drivers once told me to never stop at a gas station when you see the tanker there. As they are "dumping" the fuel into the underground storage tanks it's stirring up the sludge and water on the bottom of the tank! And I always try to get ethanol free gas too.
Hope it helps...

edit for resistor wiring info.

[robbkramer]

Rob,

Two quick things to try is to run a dedicated hot to the coil +, (from the solenoid + terminal) to see if the engine will run like that. Don't leave the hot hooked up for any length of time without running the engine though. This will take the ignition switch out of the picture. This also almost sound like it could be resistor wiring failing, (the hot wire will also rule this out). And check the points gap, (I can't remember if it should be .035)?

Then I'd throw a clear fuel filter on it so you can see if it's got a good supply of gas. And don't rule out the possibility of bad gas, (water contaminated) either. I worked for a gas supplier for awhile, glad I got away from there... One of the drivers once told me to never stop at a gas station when you see the tanker there. As they are "dumping" the fuel into the underground storage tanks it's stirring up the sludge and water on the bottom of the tank! And I always try to get ethanol free gas too.
Hope it helps...

edit for resistor wiring info.

Excellent--hot lead from + to + --I will kick over when I connect, right? Can do that right now!

[tidybowl]

12volt systems in cars and trucks are a pain in the as . I have rewired 3 different vehicles completely and what was universal in the instructions to ALL was the connection of grounds. In an older truck rust can render ground straps useless, big and small. Everything you state is happening can be related to a ground issue. the truck runs OK one moment then a problem the next. You can add ground wires from the body to the engine (10 ga. wire), the body to the trans ect. or start tracing down the factory connections and remove them and clean the chassis bright and shinny.
Since you have prob. moved by now, take your time using a wire diagram and clean one at a time. If not make a strap from the battery ground directly to the body on the fire wall to get you by for now.

[robbkramer]

12volt systems in cars and trucks are a pain in the as . I have rewired 3 different vehicles completely and what was universal in the instructions to ALL was the connection of grounds. In an older truck rust can render ground straps useless, big and small. Everything you state is happening can be related to a ground issue. the truck runs OK one moment then a problem the next. You can add ground wires from the body to the engine (10 ga. wire), the body to the trans ect. or start tracing down the factory connections and remove them and clean the chassis bright and shinny.
Since you have prob. moved by now, take your time using a wire diagram and clean one at a time. If not make a strap from the battery ground directly to the body on the fire wall to get you by for now.

Interesting: I cleaned one to the block from the battery; I think I'll go after the other two I've seen and find some more. I noticed the ground on the fuel sender, while inside, is still an old, rusted screw mount--I'll get that as well! Thanks for the input. I'll post if something improves!

[basketcase0302]

Rob,
To add to what Tidybowl said above...there should be a ground from the intake manifold, (rear of it) to the firewall. And there should be a ground from the DS front framerail, (very front bumper area) to the radiator core support.

[robbkramer]

12volt systems in cars and trucks are a pain in the as . I have rewired 3 different vehicles completely and what was universal in the instructions to ALL was the connection of grounds. In an older truck rust can render ground straps useless, big and small. Everything you state is happening can be related to a ground issue. the truck runs OK one moment then a problem the next. You can add ground wires from the body to the engine (10 ga. wire), the body to the trans ect. or start tracing down the factory connections and remove them and clean the chassis bright and shinny.
Since you have prob. moved by now, take your time using a wire diagram and clean one at a time. If not make a strap from the battery ground directly to the body on the fire wall to get you by for now.

Will a bad voltage regulator cause these symptoms? That's one thing I haven't replaced. I'm wondering what is that running circuit that would also affect the instrument lights and fuel gauge from operating, or operating sporadically--trying to find things related (or I've got more than one issue going on!)

I will try to isolate the ignition switch as soon as I can find a remote start switch I don't have to order, then go from there. Probably throw in new points just to remove that from the equation.

What a bummer!

[tidybowl]

I feel your pain. Yes a voltage regulator effects the entire system. If the alternator output dips and spikes the regulator is supposed to even the voltage on the output side. I would change the regulator before doing anything else. This can and will stop the truck from running and they have always been a weak spot in Ford electrical systems. So much so I keep a spare in my truck.
As another thought, how old is the distributor? It is possible the shaft bushing are worn and making the point gap go in and out of correct setting. I replaced my entire dist. with an electronic unit last year, so no more points issues.

[robbkramer]

I feel your pain. Yes a voltage regulator effects the entire system. If the alternator output dips and spikes the regulator is supposed to even the voltage on the output side. I would change the regulator before doing anything else. This can and will stop the truck from running and they have always been a weak spot in Ford electrical systems. So much so I keep a spare in my truck.
As another thought, how old is the distributor? It is possible the shaft bushing are worn and making the point gap go in and out of correct setting. I replaced my entire dist. with an electronic unit last year, so no more points issues.

I hadn't thought of this. The dist. is the original one. I'm going to pull it tonight and have a look. I wouldn't be surprised if it's worn, has skipped teeth on the drive gear--who knows what. Those performance units are pricey---I might replace with a standard dist. and then put an ACCEL conversion kit in it get rid of the points. Will save a few hundred that way.

Thanks! I'll update with what I discover . . .

[robbkramer]

Question: what is the ballast resistor wire and where does it fit in the ignition wiring schema? I'm confused because my truck has been rewired from the firewall to the coil/dizzy; there is a solid-block type ballast resistor (see attached pic) bolted to the firewall and the positive lead runs through it via clip connectors prior to reaching the coil. This is doesn't strike me as the best connection and now that I've seen parts pics of actual ballast resistor wires, I'm really suspicious of this set up. Any ideas?

ballast.jpg

[basketcase0302]

robbkramer on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:29 pm
Question: what is the ballast resistor wire and where does it fit in the ignition wiring schema? I'm confused because my truck has been rewired from the firewall to the coil/dizzy; there is a solid-block type ballast resistor (see attached pic) bolted to the firewall and the positive lead runs through it via clip connectors prior to reaching the coil. This is doesn't strike me as the best connection and now that I've seen parts pics of actual ballast resistor wires, I'm really suspicious of this set up. Any ideas?

The "resistor wiring" originally put in our trucks will be a pinkish colored wire coming from the ignition switch-used to power the original points ignition. Chances are someone was too lazy to remove it from the harness, so they just tied it-into the ballast resistor on your firewall. The resistor wiring leaves the ignition switch and goes into the harness under the dash-wrapped by electrical tape, (crawling under our dashes is not too fun-hence the shortcut)!

recent cap, rotor and points

So you'll need to keep that firewall mounted resistor, (but get all the paint off of it-or replace it). And there should also be some type of insulation between that firewall mounted resistor, (phenolic/ heavy gauge plastic/rubber) and the metal of the truck. It would also be prone to getting wet there if your hood cowl seal is bad, (causing the truck to die after getting a bath or when it rains, (make sure your cowl seal is in good working order-they are cheap).
Would be nice to see a voltage reading on your coil + with the key on.

[tidybowl]

Ballast resistors are important for really only one reason and that's to extend the life of the points. There is roughly a 2.5 volt drop after the resister so the dist. receives 9.5 volts. This was designed to make points last 30k to 40K miles before filing them or replacing them. You can run the truck for a while without the resister in-line to eliminate this as a source of your problem. I'm still liken' the voltage reg. as the source of your issues.

[robbkramer]

Ballast resistors are important for really only one reason and that's to extend the life of the points. There is roughly a 2.5 volt drop after the resister so the dist. receives 9.5 volts. This was designed to make points last 30k to 40K miles before filing them or replacing them. You can run the truck for a while without the resister in-line to eliminate this as a source of your problem. I'm still liken' the voltage reg. as the source of your issues.

Cool. OK, so this afternoon I'll be replacing the ballast resistor, or removing it, and installing a new voltage regulator. I pulled the distributor last night and while the ground needs cleaning pretty bad, the shaft bushings don't seem worn to me. I'll have to check the gap later today. Then I'm going to remove the ignition switch from the circuit and see if she runs that way--if the volt reg didn't fix the issue already.

Stay tuned!

[robbkramer]

Ok gents, got her running! Here's what I did since late yesterday:

1. removed dist., cleaned housing and the two plates inside (very dirty and gummy)
2. new points and condenser
3. new plugs
4. new voltage regulator
5. new ballast resistor with plastic plate between it and firewall
6. new headlight switch
7. cleaned all grounds that I came across esp. primary engine to frame grounds.
8. timing check with test light

Engine turned over and started last night after installing new points and volt. regulator but idled very rough. Today, I installed new plugs, set the gap on the points and she started and idled nicely. I realized with the new volt reg.--based on the activity of the gauge on the instrument cluster, that the original one wasn't working very well at all.

The fuel gauge was fixed by replacing a blown, in-line fuse I discovered. The dash lights work nicely now with a new headlight switch (OEM type available at Orielly's Auto Parts, by the way). Since the points I replaced didn't appear to be very worn (not gapped very right, though), my assumption is that the voltage regulator was causing most of my trouble. I didn't do everything in sequence, unfortunately, to really pin it down but I'm not sure that would have worked; the failure might only happen when everything is connected.

At any rate . . .all the input here was fantastic and I thank you! Only thing left is a higher speed road test.

Thanks!

[basketcase0302]

Glad you got it going! Careful on that "higher speed road test".