390FE (406ci) for #50, built by Tom Lucas at FE Specialties.

[OldRedFord]

Thanks for the update Robroy!

I had already thought fairly highly of FE S, but since your (RE) build hit mid stride, my opinion grew higher.
When it was completed and he agreed to let yall all meet there to see it run in, it grew higher still.
When he agreed to do the interview, It neared the ceiling.
NOW that he came by while he was near, not only is FE S #1 with a bullet on the list, Tom is definitely in my FE list of greats!

All that to say this. From this angle, it appears that FE S is the ONLY option for FE builds done right!

Robroy, I do hate that it took a pile of unsavory horse leftovers for you to get your engine done right, but I'm grateful for you attention to detail in chronicling it all for the rest of us to read and for all the info we've gathered as to who's who and what's what.

Thanks,
Frank

I wholeheartedly agree! If I was going to build a FE I would defiantly want a shop like FE Specialties to do it for me.

I need a shop like that local that deals with 429/460s.

[robroy]

Good afternoon Tim, thanks for replying!

NOW that he came by while he was near, not only is FE S #1 with a bullet on the list, Tom is definitely in my FE list of greats!

I wholeheartedly agree! If I was going to build a FE I would defiantly want a shop like FE Specialties to do it for me.

Excellent! As I understand it, there are just a few options for a great FE. Here they are, stated ironically.

1. Do it completely on your own, operating in a highly meticulous fashion from beginning to completion. Like Robert did with his FE.
2. Research a general engine builder that builds every type of V8 engine for a few days, then have them do it. Then pull it all apart and be completely shocked at how bad it is. Then hire a shop like FE Specialties to re-do it.
3. Hire a shop like FE Specialties to do it from start to finish, the first time around.

I need a shop like that local that deals with 429/460s.

I'm sure you can find one! It may be a good idea to find one that specializes in 385-series engines, or at least one that specializes in old fashioned Ford V8s.

Here's another simple test: find out what engine(s) the guys in the shop have in their own toys.

I bought my first FE from a shop that built a Small Block Chevy for their main toy car, and we all know how that turned out. Tom has a 427 under the hood of his Mustang.

You might find a shop that builds 385-series engines for their own enjoyment in addition to the engines they build for customers.

Thanks for your excellent reply Tim!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I am with 70_F100 on this, just put it together... I've put a lot of engines in (and transmissions) some of them pretty high performance and I've never had any problems...

I am not disputing that there might be a reason to do it on occasion, but we are talking about an F250 with a big relatively low RPM V-8, not a formula one car or a 1000 hp turbo or super charged small block

[Alvin in AZ]

Robroy wrote:
>I suppose the dial indicator doesn't require a pristine surface on the
>inside of the large bell housing hole, which isn't machined anyways.
>Yet doesn't it still require a regular, immaculate surface where it
>mounts (with the magnetic base)?

All it needs to is not-rock or move in the process of using it. LOL :)
The feeler/followed needs to have a clean surface to work with but
even that won't interfere with the readings because a human can
"see past" the "noise" in the system caused by grit. :)

Butthead in AZ

[robroy]

Good evening Robert and Alvin, thanks for your excellent replies!

I am with 70_F100 on this, just put it together... I've put a lot of engines in (and transmissions) some of them pretty high performance and I've never had any problems...

You're probably right about this Robert; thanks for letting me know your opinion! Perhaps a compromise is in order.

I am not disputing that there might be a reason to do it on occasion, but we are talking about an F250 with a big relatively low RPM V-8, not a formula one car or a 1000 hp turbo or super charged small block

Now that you mention it, I didn't see anything like #50 in the photos on the Browell Bellhousing Web site. HA! Here's the animated GIF image that appears on their site; I keep watching it for a Bumpside but don't see one.

I suppose the dial indicator doesn't require a pristine surface on the inside of the large bell housing hole, which isn't machined anyways. Yet doesn't it still require a regular, immaculate surface where it mounts (with the magnetic base)?

All it needs to is not-rock or move in the process of using it. LOL

Okay! I think I'd have to try one of these out to understand this; I can't imagine how a guy would ensure that the dial gauge's rotating axis was perfectly concentric with the crankshaft.

The feeler/followed needs to have a clean surface to work with but even that won't interfere with the readings because a human can "see past" the "noise" in the system caused by grit.

This part I completely understand, and I think that's a nice feature of that system! I like the words you chose to describe that.

Earlier this evening I slipped three 0.025" feeler gauges between the Browell tool and the crankshaft. The gauges wouldn't slip in without making the tool pretty loose on the crankshaft, so they seemed like the perfect thickness!

These two photos are the same except for the camera's flash setting, and you can click on any of these for much larger versions, as usual.



With the gauges properly sandwiched, I carefully torqued the bolts holding the tool to the crankshaft to 15 ft/lbs. I went back and forth between the bolts, building up the torque over a few steps.



Next I re-installed the bell housing, and took great care to torque its bolts evenly to 15 ft/lbs.



I eyeballed the clearance around the ring, and to my great surprise, it looked perfect all around! I gave it a gentle shove, and POP--it slid right in. But "SHINK" is a more accurate onomatopoeia than "POP."




Notes:

1. I'm planning on re-testing this with the starter/spacer plate installed.
2. The ring popped through the bell housing hole even BETTER than it did before this latest engine rebuild.
3. I read on one of the bell housing alignment tutorials than an engine align-hone can subtly relocate the crankshaft's center point in the block, so it may have been a good idea to at least check it this far.
4. During Tom's visit last Saturday, he mentioned that he really liked the Browell tool, and planned on ordering one for use in his shop. I heard that in his opinion, it looked like a better method of performing the check it's designed to perform than the classic dial gauge method.
5. Unless somebody jumps up and down and screams, I'm planning on being happy with the Browell tool results and moving on. I'll remain open to being convinced to do otherwise for at least 24 hours!

Robert and Alvin, thanks for your fantastic replies!
Robroy

[Alvin in AZ]

>>All it needs to is not-rock or move in the process of using it. LOL :)
>I think I'd have to try one of these out to understand this;
>I can't imagine how a guy would ensure that the dial gauge's
>rotating axis was perfectly concentric with the crankshaft.

Don't have to be in the center for the "follower" to track a perfect circle. :)

Anyway, picture drawing a perfect circle in the dirt around a merry-go-round on the school yard. :)
It doesn't matter if you are standing in the center or not you can still draw any size circle you want.
And more important than anything is, if you don't wobble around (been on there too dangged long ;)
the circle around it will be just about perfect.

If the ground is uneven then you'll need a "birds eye view" to see the "perfect" circle.

Someone standing near the edge reaching all the way across -crooked- with a long stick
could draw the same sized perfect circle you could, standing "perfectly" in the center.

>[*] During Tom's visit last Saturday, he mentioned that he really liked the Browell tool,
>and planned on ordering one for use in his shop. I heard that in his opinion, it looked
>like a better method of performing the check it's designed to perform than the classic
>dial gauge method.

In that case, trade it to 'im for a -bucket- full of dial indicators and magnetic bases! ;)

Enough BS yet? :)
If you are satisfied with how straight it is, then it's straight enough. :)

Alvin in AZ
ps- Who played marbles as a kid and drew a circle around themselves besides me? :)
pps- I was -good- at marbles, no kidding.

[Ranchero50]

Yeah that... You get concentricity because the crank is turning concentricly in the bearing bore so the dial follows the cranks sweep as long as it's not rocking on the mounts.

I was reading the Ford manual for '74 and it has a page dedicated to this, basicly said clean, measure inner bore and face, measure, clean and repeat until it's clean enough to read right. If you can't get the bore runout to .001" toss the bellhousing. You can use shop made shims for the face runout of it's over .001" TIR (total indicator runout). I wanted to bring it into work and scan it but it's still sitting on the counter and I'm here.

I'm doing the same thing at work to a cassette module in the folder. Trying to get it right is a pain. You have to use a port-a-power to spread the side frame of the folder apart to get the housing to move, then support that and tap it a couple thou whichever way you want it. I'm about to install some jacking screws so I can hold the height without a chainfall.

PITA.

Good luck,
Jamie

[robroy]

Good evening Alvin and Jamie, thanks for your fantastic replies!

All it needs to is not-rock or move in the process of using it. LOL

I think I'd have to try one of these out to understand this; I can't imagine how a guy would ensure that the dial gauge's rotating axis was perfectly concentric with the crankshaft.

Don't have to be in the center for the "follower" to track a perfect circle.

Anyway, picture drawing a perfect circle in the dirt around a merry-go-round on the school yard. It doesn't matter if you are standing in the center or not you can still draw any size circle you want. And more important than anything is, if you don't wobble around (been on there too dangged long the circle around it will be just about perfect.

Gosh Alvin, you're a master at these great analogies--thank you! I understand what you're conveying perfectly and find my previous impression of the situation comical now.

If the ground is uneven then you'll need a "birds eye view" to see the "perfect" circle.

Got it!

Someone standing near the edge reaching all the way across -crooked- with a long stick could draw the same sized perfect circle you could, standing "perfectly" in the center.

Excellent. Understood 100%.

During Tom's visit last Saturday, he mentioned that he really liked the Browell tool, and planned on ordering one for use in his shop.

In that case, trade it to 'im for a -bucket- full of dial indicators and magnetic bases!

HA! You could be right about this. Some day I'll have an inescapable need to use one of the dial indicators, and I'll probably look back on this with a new understanding.

If you are satisfied with how straight it is, then it's straight enough.

Okay! Thanks so much for your great help.

ps- Who played marbles as a kid and drew a circle around themselves besides me? pps- I was -good- at marbles, no kidding.

I never played with them! But my parents kept marbles in the freezer at all times. If they could find no other way to get one of us children out of bed in the morning for school, they'd dump in the sack of frozen marbles. It was as effective as it was memorable!

Yeah that... You get concentricity because the crank is turning concentricly in the bearing bore so the dial follows the cranks sweep as long as it's not rocking on the mounts.

Okay! Thanks for explaining this. My previous visualization was nonsensical!

I was reading the Ford manual for '74 and it has a page dedicated to this, basicly said clean, measure inner bore and face, measure, clean and repeat until it's clean enough to read right. If you can't get the bore runout to .001" toss the bellhousing. You can use shop made shims for the face runout of it's over .001" TIR (total indicator runout). I wanted to bring it into work and scan it but it's still sitting on the counter and I'm here.

Thanks Jamie! Now that you mention this, my 1972 Ford shop manual has a similar section in it. It even has a photo of the dial gauge in action! So I think I'm all set with a reference when the time comes for me to learn more.

I'm doing the same thing at work to a cassette module in the folder. Trying to get it right is a pain. You have to use a port-a-power to spread the side frame of the folder apart to get the housing to move, then support that and tap it a couple thou whichever way you want it. I'm about to install some jacking screws so I can hold the height without a chainfall.

You sure have a way with machines Jamie! Your work's impressive. Here I am still trying to understand my key-ring.

The sun came out today so I was able to take some photos in better lighting!




I re-tested the alignment with the starter plate installed, and found it equally excellent!




Jamie and Alvin, thank you both for taking the time to explain the additional alignment checks that I'm not going to perform this time around. I'm certain that your advice will benefit me in the future when I'm in a similar situation!

Thanks for your quality replies,
Robroy

[robroy]

Good evening,

To avoid expanding this thread with another topic that's not entirely related to The Yellow Jacket, I've opened: Spacer plate, inspection cover, and header clearance issues.

Here's a photo of today's work area for your entertainment.



Thanks for all the fantastic advice!
Robroy

[BobbyFord]

Is that a digital egg timer on the cowl? Hopefully you did not start that timer when you were putting in the previous engine

[robroy]

Good evening BobbyFord, thanks for replying!

Is that a digital egg timer on the cowl?

Yes that's exactly what it is! Great eye.

Hopefully you did not start that timer when you were putting in the previous engine

HA! I find that I never clean and organize my work area unless I set the timer for thirty minutes and focus on it! Otherwise the disorganization grows very quickly out there.

Thanks for your reply BobbyFord!
Robroy

[Ranchero50]

A timer... Heck that's usually the first step on a new weekend, gather all the tools and clean up the mess from the kids or the last project, then put the tools away. I even vacuumed the garage out a month ago, then ran out of wood and the kid used the chop saw on the garage floor to cut up a bunch of old split rail fence peices, saw dust everywhere...

Jamie

[bb429power]

The price was around $1,000--maybe a little less. It's a lot of work! Tom actually rents a facility with a big dyno machine, and runs the engine on it all day, continuously re-tuning it until he gets the best performance. It's not just a one-shot deal to measure its initial performance.

Maybe you should talk to my builder in Michigan. He takes it to a buddy of his in Ohio and tunes it for a total of like $500. Then he's getting us a deal on a chassis dyno to tune it to the car, we didn't get the engine dynoed at all. We broke it in at home and we might get the car chassis dynoed so its setup perfectly to match the car itself. This would be your best bet to have done, when its the engine being done by itself the tuning isn't as good when its hooked up in the car. Now it has to turn a bunch of stuff over so do you see what I'm getting at? It affects its power curve. But its not like it wont spin the tires anymore because of it or anything.

[Alvin in AZ]

...when its the engine being done by itself the tuning isn't as good when its hooked up in the car.
Now it has to turn a bunch of stuff over so do you see what I'm getting at? It affects its power curve.

Cool but. ;)
What about wind resistance?
Does it get factored in or what?
I don't see it anyway. :/
"work is work" is all I see, whether it's a brake applied on an engine stand or held back through gearing.
Hmmm... I suppose I can see the mixture changing while changing gears tho. Is that where they are
finding problems that need tweaking while it's in the vehicle? :)

Alvin in AZ

[70_F100]