Charging issue - need quick advice

[Thunderfoot]

That meter from Sears will work great!

That tester you have in the picture looks like an AC / DC voltage tester, all it does is tell if there is voltage on the line and if it is AC or DC. The LED tell you which one it is, it will work like your test light... put the (-) at a ground and the (+) a power wire and the LED should light up, also should tell you (in some flashing code or something) if you have it hooked up correctly -/+ direction... These are good to use in an industrial type electrical system / controller where it would have both AC and DC circuits in it and you can probe around and find out which wires are carrying what type of Voltage.

[Supermike]

Thanks, Thunderfoot! That helps... I've been trying to figure out how to use it since I got it. LOL! I used it once as a jumper and that kind of worked, but I figured there was more purpose to it. haha! My wife picked up the tester from Sears about an hour ago... so tonight before I take out the alternator, I'll be:

1) Checking the voltage of the battery while truck is not running (expected voltage 12.6. ... or 13.8?)

2) Checking the ground of the VR by connecting my test light to the mounting bolt and touching the other end to the battery's (+) terminal

3) Testing the continuity on the #904 wire (with the key to ON/RUN) to make sure I was right about no power on that wire.

4) If there is no juice, then I'll unplug the VR and use my little spade-jumper I made for stuff like this and jump #35 to #152. Then see if I have lights at the #35 terminal on the alternator. If I'm correct, at that point (after the jump) I should see power (with my test light) at BOTH #35 and #38. Then I'll remove the jumper and see what the Ohm reading is on that wire (should be close to 0, right?).

5) Then start the truck up and measure the voltage at the battery, to see if it is around 14.5+/- or greater (signifying the alternator is being told to MAX charge).

6) Remove the alternator and battery to take to Advance Auto for bench testing


If I'm understanding correct... with action item #3 above, if I get power on #35 by jumping it, does that mean the VR is bad? In looking at the diagram, I'm having a hard time understanding where the #904 wire is getting it's power when the key is ON. From the ignition? Is it possible - even remotely - that all of this could be relative to a bad ignition switch?

Also, just FYI since we're talking about the wiring and whatnot... the ONLY wiring alterations that appear to have been made on my truck have been by me (there are some hack splices, but nothign crazy). The changes I have made are to install one of 390nut's headlight harnesses, and to install a Pertronix II system. On the Pertronix installation, I chose to clip the resistor wire (#16A) near the ignition switch and wire in a new wire directly to the coil.

Continued THANKS!

Mike

[70_F100]

Thanks, Thunderfoot! That helps... I've been trying to figure out how to use it since I got it. LOL! I used it once as a jumper and that kind of worked, but I figured there was more purpose to it. haha! My wife picked up the tester from Sears about an hour ago... so tonight before I take out the alternator, I'll be:

1) Checking the voltage of the battery to see if it's more than 12.6 -- and hopefully closer to 14.5+/- or greater

Remember, the 14.5+/- is with the engine running. With the engine off, it should be close to 12.6.

2) Checking the ground of the VR by connecting my test light to the mounting bolt and touching the other end to the battery's (+) terminal

If you don't see any results at first, be sure to wiggle the clip on your test light to make sure it's getting a good connection.

3) Testing the continuity on the #904 wire (with the key to ON/RUN) to make sure I was right about no power on that wire. CONTINUITY is tested with the ohmmeter, and should be done with the battery disconnected, just to make sure there's no power on the wire (could blow your meter). It may just be a terminology thing, but if you're testing for power, that's not what's known as a continuity test. If there is no juice, then I'll use my little spade-jumper I made for stuff like this and jump it to the #152, and then see if I have lights at the #35 terminal on the alternator. If I'm correct, at that point (after the jump) I should see power (with my test light) at BOTH #35 and #38. Then I'll remove the jumper and see what the Ohm reading is on that wire (should be close to 0, right?). Again, check this with the battery disconnected!!!

4) Remove the alternator and battery to take to Advance Auto for bench testing


If I'm understanding correct... with action item #3 above, if I get power on #35 by jumping it, does that mean the VR is bad? In looking at the diagram, I'm having a hard time understanding where the #904 wire is getting it's power when the key is ON. From the ignition? Is it possible - even remotely - that all of this could be relative to a bad ignition switch? #904 is getting power from the switch. Yes, it could be a bad switch, but not very likely. If you're not getting power on that wire, the most likely culprit is a bad connection or a broken wire.

Also, just FYI since we're talking about the wiring and whatnot... the ONLY wiring alterations that appear to have been made on my truck have been by me (there are some hack splices, but nothign crazy). The changes I have made are to install one of 390nut's headlight harnesses, and to install a Pertronix II system. On the Pertronix installation, I chose to clip the resistor wire (#16A) near the ignition switch and wire in a new wire directly to the coil.

Continued THANKS!

Mike

[Thunderfoot]

Before you pull the alternator out read below to the end.

1) Checking the voltage of the battery to see if it's more than 12.6 -- and hopefully closer to 14.5+/- or greater

The battery just sitting there should have 12.5 +/- it will only show 13.5-14.5 with the motor running and the alternator working.

2) Checking the ground of the VR by connecting my test light to the mounting bolt and touching the other end to the battery's (+) terminal

3) Testing the continuity on the #904 wire (with the key to ON/RUN) to make sure I was right about no power on that wire. If there is no juice, then I'll use my little spade-jumper I made for stuff like this and jump it to the #152, and then see if I have lights at the #35 terminal on the alternator. If I'm correct, at that point (after the jump) I should see power (with my test light) at BOTH #35 and #38. Then I'll remove the jumper and see what the Ohm reading is on that wire (should be close to 0, right?).

This test will tell you if the alternator is good or not so that you wont have to pull it to have it checked... But you want to jumper the #35 (orange wire) with the #152 (yellow wire) NOT the 904 wire... You can also then check the "F" terminal wire # 35 at the alternator for power and then start the truck and check the voltage at the battery it should be 13.5 or higher. If you decide to ohm that wire, yes it should be close to 0 and do like 70_F100 said and be sure there is no power on the wire section you are going to check.

4) Remove the alternator and battery to take to Advance Auto for bench testing

I would do this very last if you still haven't found out the problem (but I think I know what it is, keep reading)

If I'm understanding correct... with action item #3 above, if I get power on #35 by jumping it, does that mean the VR is bad? In looking at the diagram, I'm having a hard time understanding where the #904 wire is getting it's power when the key is ON. From the ignition? Is it possible - even remotely - that all of this could be relative to a bad ignition switch?

Could be but that 904 wire has to be getting power if it is not then THAT is your problem. Yes the ignition switch could be the issue BUT keep reading.

Also, just FYI since we're talking about the wiring and whatnot... the ONLY wiring alterations that appear to have been made on my truck have been by me (there are some hack splices, but nothing crazy). The changes I have made are to install one of 390nut's headlight harnesses, and to install a Pertronix II system. On the Pertronix installation, I chose to clip the resistor wire (#16A) near the ignition switch and wire in a new wire directly to the coil.

Know we are on to something. did you see this charging problem show up shortly after doing the Pertronix install? I haven't tore a wiring harness apart to follow these wires but it is VERY possible that this ignition wire (#16) splits off to the voltage regulator a ways after the ignition switch (just like it shows in that diagram) and when you cut that wire you cut the power to #904. That #904 wire is supposed to be a resistive wire and there is a good possibility that it just used the same piece of resistive wire (pink wire) that the coil did and just split off after that.
If you don't have power on that #904 wire at the VR this is the FIRST place I would start... where you cut that wire hook it back up and see if you then have power on the 904 wire, if you do then all should be good.

[70_F100]

Also, just FYI since we're talking about the wiring and whatnot... the ONLY wiring alterations that appear to have been made on my truck have been by me (there are some hack splices, but nothing crazy). The changes I have made are to install one of 390nut's headlight harnesses, and to install a Pertronix II system. On the Pertronix installation, I chose to clip the resistor wire (#16A) near the ignition switch and wire in a new wire directly to the coil.

Know we are on to something. did you see this charging problem show up shortly after doing the Pertronix install? I haven't tore a wiring harness apart to follow these wires but it is VERY possible that this ignition wire (#16) splits off to the voltage regulator a ways after the ignition switch (just like it shows in that diagram) and when you cut that wire you cut the power to #904. That #904 wire is supposed to be a resistive wire and there is a good possibility that it just used the same piece of resistive wire (pink wire) that the coil did and just split off after that.
If you don't have power on that #904 wire at the VR this is the FIRST place I would start... where you cut that wire hook it back up and see if you then have power on the 904 wire, if you do then all should be good.

I'm with Thunderfoot. That would be the FIRST place I would check.

Looking at the diagram, it looks like #16 and #16A are joined right at the ignition switch connector. However, since this is a SCHEMATIC, Thunderfoot could VERY WELL be on to something here. Schematics don't always illustrate WHERE and HOW the wires are connected, they just illustrate the "To" and "From" of the wiring.

If that DOES correct it, it just goes to show that a better history and explanation of symptoms should ALWAYS be provided when asking for troubleshooting help in a forum such as this!! Things that you think may be insignificant are, many times, the root of the problem!!

[Supermike]

Ugh.

Honestly, I don't know how long this problem has been around. I generally keep the truck on the battery tender when it's not in use, so I have a pigtail on the battery and just plug it up after every trip. I usually don't have to make 20 stops when I'm out, but lately I seem to have had more of those. Combined with the colder weather (thus, harder starts) and more night driving, it could be that I'm finally seeing an issue that has been around for a while.

The thing about it is that, when I installed the Pertronix, I was told I had to remove/bypass the pink resistor wire. I asked what else it served, and was told "only the coil", which the diagrams bore out. I was hesitant to make any cuts, but finally decided that making just the one cut and running a new wire was the best path. Because I could not swap the wires ON the ignition, I made just one cut to the red/green wire coming off the ignition (which leads to the pink on '67) to give the coil it a full 12v. This way, if I ever want/need to switch back to points, I only need to splice the original wire back together.

Now here's the deal... everyone and everything discussed when going over my Pertronix installation pointed to the '67 diagram (or some version of it), which shows the #904 wire going to a charge indicator light. I think... I need to dig out the diagrams at home that were color coded that I printed off. HOWEVER, in the '69 diagram that includes the ammeter, the #904 connects to the #16 (pink) and shows the pink (#16A) coming off the ignition... which it does NOT on my '67. I could not find the end of the pink, as it disappeard into my harness. Only the red/green wire connected to my ignition.

67 w/light: http://www.fordification.com/tech/wirin ... gauges.jpg
69 w/ammeter: http://www.fordification.com/tech/wirin ... gauges.jpg

SO... if the #16 red/green wire connects somehow to the #904 green/red wire, then there's a definite problem there! I would think my truck would be wired closer to this, which shows the 16 only connecting to the ignition, and then connecting to the 904:

68 w/ammeter: http://www.fordification.com/tech/wirin ... arging.jpg


Man... this is killing me. You very well may be right on about this! But as it stands, I HAD to cut the #16 and route a new wire directly from the ignition to the coil to bypass the resistor wire...

Here's the diagram I made for my Pertronix installation: http://www.fordification.com/forum/down ... &mode=view

This is definitely worth looking at, but if it's the issue, I don't know what to do.

[Supermike]

Actually, with that 68 diagram, I realize that's with the HO alternator... what I was saying is that the '68 stuff ONLY shows the #16 connecting to the #904 ... NO "#16A"... so it appears to me that my #16 red/green that also connects to the pink must somewhere tie in to the green/red #904?

Any suggestions on, if this IS the issue, how I should go about working around it??

[Thunderfoot]

Where you cut and replaced/added the wire for the coil for the Pertronix at the ignition switch, I would just tie that Red/green wire back into the loop. You already ran a new wire from there most of the way to the coil so it will get the full 12V need and then your wire for the VR (hopefully) will/should be hooked back up, just be sure that the old/original part of the coil wire that is not being used on the engine side is protected on the end so it doesn't ground out somewhere.

[70_F100]

Here's a quick and simple fix :

Reconnect the wire to the original harness, putting the harness back into its original configuration.

Disconnect the + wire from the coil.

Run a new wire all the way from the switch to the coil.

Using a Scotchlok connector, connect this new wire to the red/green wire under the dash, and attach the other end of it to the coil (alternately, when you reconnect the original wire, solder the two ends of the red/green wire and this new wire in one joint). You might even find another switched 12V connection that is available, thus being able to just do a "plug and play" type installation.

This will effectively by-pass the resistor wire while putting the harness back in a condition that you know is correct. It will also give you the option, as you stated in your post, of going back to points if you want.

To make it look nice, you could use split loom or wrap the new wire to the harness going to the coil with electrical tape.

[70_F100]

Thunderfoot, I guess GMTA!!

I was typing while you were posting!!

[Supermike]

THanks guys... I'll check it out and try to post an update tonight or tomorrow sometime. Stuck at work right now.

I'll probalby go with Thunderfoot's suggestion first, if that turns out to be the issue, and then look into yours later 70_F100... I'm not a big fan of Scotchlok connectors, because I don't feel I always get a solid connection with them. I also don't have a soldering iron. But if I could find some other dual 12v connector that merges 2>1 that might be a good route to go.

The end of the original coil wire is laying by the coil on the block. It's booted, and has electrical tape around it.

[70_F100]

The best way to repair the wire is to solder it.

Those crimp-on connectors are just so-so, and subject to corrosion.

Here's a soldering iron from Sears that would do the job quite well for very little cost:

Craftsman Solder Iron, 30 watt
Sold by Sears | Sears Item# 00954041000 | Model# 54041

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... ering+iron#

Solder the wires together, insulate it with heat-shrink tubing, and you'll be as good as new!!!

[Supermike]

Where you cut and replaced/added the wire for the coil for the Pertronix at the ignition switch, I would just tie that Red/green wire back into the loop. You already ran a new wire from there most of the way to the coil so it will get the full 12V need and then your wire for the VR (hopefully) will/should be hooked back up, just be sure that the old/original part of the coil wire that is not being used on the engine side is protected on the end so it doesn't ground out somewhere.

Thunderfoot, you (and 70_F100!) are a mad genius!

Wow... so here's how my night went down...

1) Checked the voltage on the battery just sitting there... it was 12.56, so that's good.
2) Checked the voltage on the battery while the truck was running... it was 12.35, not so good.
3) Checked the ground of the VR by connecting test light to mounting bolt and then other end to battery (+)... it was good.
4) Tested the continuity on the #904 wire with the key to ON/RUN... X No power.
5) Jumpered the #35 (which is white on my truck) to the yellow #152 and then checked the #35 on the alernator... it was good.
6) Started truck with the jumper (vr bypass) in place and the reading was 16.5... I think that's good!
7) Removed the jumper and disconnected the battery. Checked the Ohm reading on the #35 wire... it was 0.000, so that's good.
NOW....Went back to my wiring for the Pertronix. Removed butt connector and twisted the new wire for the coil to the old red/green wire (#16) which leads to the pink resistor. With the truck off, the reading was 12.55, which is good. With the truck running, the reading was... 14.28!!



Man, I can't believe that this problem has been around this long and just reared it's ugly little head. This could have been any number of things, and you two really stuck with me to get it figured out. I really can't thank you enough! I really appreciate the help, and this removes a HUGE headache for me that has been really getting in my way for several weeks now. I may have replaced more than necessary (alternator, regulator, solenoid), but in the end it should be better off for it. I'm also thankful I don't have to pull off the alternator again!! But I am going to charge the battery overnight and have it tested for posterity, just in case I killed a cell during all of this.

As for the final fix, like I said for now I just twisted the coil wire and the #16 wire together and fed into one end of the butt connector, and of course the little length of wire going to the ignition was on the other end, with both in electrical tape. I'm assuming this won't cause any issues. The old coil wire has been packed with a little dielectric grease (to prevent corosion) and wrapped in electrical tape, too. Perhaps later when I have more time (and it's not 20° outside) I'll figure out a more permanent solution.

So one more time ... you guys really helped a brother out, and it is much appreciated!!

Now on to that exhaust leak and brakes...

[Thunderfoot]

Good deal, glad you got it all working, plus you got yourself a new tool in the process

Your test results all look good, you got that new meter figured out.

These old trucks don't use much electricity just to run the engine so the battery will last longer then you think... But when you add in the heater fan and headlights it drains the battery quick!

Having the battery checked after you get it charged up is good insurance (epically this time of year) as draining them low several times can be hard on em'.

[Supermike]

Absolutely!! Thanks again, Thunderfoot... and the meter will come in handy for sure in the future!

I had the battery tested today (out of the truck) and it tested out as "Good", with 721 CCA's (rated 760). I put it on the charger a little longer, but it should be good from now on!